yea, i read
trevor's blog and saw this conversation he had, so i added the name to my aim buddy list and imed them and had a conversation with them. i think the guy/girl is a dipshit. i mean, really. just read the conversation. this guy/girl seriously needs to get out, get laid, get drunk, get high, get something. you'll read in there somewhere that they claim to have other priorities; now i kept the person on my list and have noticed- they are always on. so, i'm thinking priorities=sitting on their ass, or porn, or maybe they work on a website or something. and then, notice how in the beginning they make an assumption, but then later tell me not to make assumptions. this person probably is smart, but they're that person in your high school class that you wanted to just slap upside the head and tell to fuck off, not because they're smart, but because they act too much like a prick. this is someone i'd probably like to antagonize. i don't think i could get tired of it. i think it's funny, cause in their head they probably make it seem like they're something new, something different, something we've never seen before, something so enlightening that we should be in awe, but really it's like "so many others have come before you, and when they said it, it was annoying, you're nothing i haven't already seen or heard before, try to be fucking original if you're capable and try not to hide behind your words" in any case, read on
freudian phoeniX: so you're an atheist?
misterravenguy: yes.
misterravenguy: who's this?
freudian phoeniX: i was reading a friend's blog and came across your screen name
misterravenguy: i guess he mentioned me. can you give me the url?
freudian phoeniX: he put up the conversation
misterravenguy: url? :-)
freudian phoeniX: want to read your handy work huh?
misterravenguy: nm, found it
freudian phoeniX:
dirtydeedsdonedirtcheap.blogspot.com
misterravenguy: handiwork?
freudian phoeniX: alot, a lot
freudian phoeniX: same difference
misterravenguy: no, what did you mean by it?
misterravenguy: it was just a conversation
freudian phoeniX: do you think you made a difference?
misterravenguy: probably not. making a difference isn't always an easy task.
freudian phoeniX: so was it worth it? the conversation is pretty damn long, if there was nothing accomplished, was it still meaningful in the end?
misterravenguy: maybe he'll go back to it. maybe someone else will read it and see the sense in my words. and maybe not.
i really don't know. sometimes time is wasted, sometimes not.
misterravenguy: are you trying to drive at anything in particular here?
freudian phoeniX: no, i found the whole thing somewhat funny
freudian phoeniX: thought i'd give you a random im, like you did trevor
misterravenguy: sure. so where do you stand?
freudian phoeniX: holy fuck that's a long ass conversation
misterravenguy: ?
misterravenguy: i've had conversations dozens of pages long. that one was rather brief.
freudian phoeniX: the conversation between you and trevor, i hadn't read all of it, i thought i was close to the end when i imed you but i scrolled down more and you two were still talking about the same shit
freudian phoeniX: well, that was a conversation about god with trevor
misterravenguy: he's a confused young man.
freudian phoeniX: i don't think he's confused
freudian phoeniX: and even if he was, what's wrong with confusion?
misterravenguy: i shouldn't have to answer that. in any case, i'm assuming you're not a rationalist. can you answer my question of where you stand with no further ado?
freudian phoeniX: sorry, i didn't see that
freudian phoeniX: not a rationalist huh? um, well, i thought about atheism for a while, thought about buddhism, like some of the ideas but never fully read into it. not quite sure where i am, i think there's a god, but it's a much different situation than christians would like to think about
misterravenguy: atheism isn't an idea, actually. it's a logical default.
misterravenguy: lacking belief in that for which there is no evidence.
misterravenguy: there'd be no need for the word had someone not dreamt up the notion of gods
freudian phoeniX: you've got a lot of time on your hands huh
misterravenguy: a lot of time on my hands?
misterravenguy: i have intellectual values to which i devote some of my time, if that's what you mean.
freudian phoeniX: and religion is one of them? or god and "the lack thereof"?
misterravenguy: i left a religion and have a lot of knowledge particularly about the bible and christianianity. refuting them comes quite naturally.
freudian phoeniX: i see, what religion?
misterravenguy: i was raised as a jehovah's witness.
freudian phoeniX: watchtowers? aren't those publications jehovah's witnesses gave out?
misterravenguy: yes, the most common
freudian phoeniX: prince is a jehovah's witness
misterravenguy: eh? he made the move?
misterravenguy: i'd heard something awhile back..
misterravenguy: funny. they actually mentioned him once in the literature, taking a shot at his lyrics.
freudian phoeniX: yea, i think, i'm not much more familiar with jehovah's witnesses than that
freudian phoeniX: so you were raised that way, and it's been a year since you've decided on atheism, so how old does that make you?
misterravenguy: i'm 23
misterravenguy: you?
freudian phoeniX: 20
misterravenguy: ah.
freudian phoeniX: ah what?
misterravenguy: just a generic acknowledment
freudian phoeniX: 20 not worthy enough or something
freudian phoeniX: i see
freudian phoeniX: generic
freudian phoeniX: generic like most of your conversation with trevor?
misterravenguy: i've only had one coversation with him..
is there any particular reason for the criticism of it?
misterravenguy: if you wish to offer a refute to any of my points, feel free.
freudian phoeniX: i didn't im you to try and berate you or anything, but the most common turn off to listening to someone's "beliefs, ideas, blah blah bullshit" is someone who expresses them in an arrogant, pompous, prickish manner
misterravenguy: your friend is wildly pretentious, i'm surprised you'd accuse me of arrogance.
misterravenguy: anyway, a critique of my manner is insignificant compared to offering one of my arguments. can you find fault with what i said?
freudian phoeniX: wildly pretentious? last i checked he didn't want an im from you, he didn't ask for it, it was someone else's idea. i mean, are you taking it on your shoulders as some good deed to spread your word, in a way i might add that many christian radicals do
freudian phoeniX: i find fault in the way you present it
misterravenguy: he could have blocked me at any time. he chose to continue it.
it wasn't a random message. another friend of his asked that i speak with him, and i did.
freudian phoeniX: you might have some intelligence, you might not, who gives a fuck, i don't, but trevor was right when he said he's heard the same fodder from many others
misterravenguy: there's only one logic.
misterravenguy: don't be surprised to find that many intelligent people use it
misterravenguy: this will cause some consistancy in the presentation of their arguments
freudian phoeniX: if you need to go on an ego-booster go to an elementary school where they're more impressionable
misterravenguy: an ego booster?
misterravenguy: if you wish to attempt a refute of my arguments, go ahead. but i have priorties that fall before listening to your arbitrary griping.
freudian phoeniX: to you it may seem like you're high and mighty with your "logic" and "logical reasoning" but it's not effective, you just come off as a prick. trevor is pretty smart, i don't know about his rocket science abilities, but he has common sense, and it seems like you don't
misterravenguy: at least i was trying to accomplish something productive in messaging your friend/
misterravenguy: think what you will. i'm an atheist and he effectively does not care if his beliefs are wrong.
freudian phoeniX: who says your's are right
freudian phoeniX: you?
misterravenguy: my what?
freudian phoeniX: beliefs
misterravenguy: i don't hold beliefs.
freudian phoeniX: you believe there is no god, that's a belief
misterravenguy: you just expressed a misconception about atheism. i don't believe there is no god, i withhold belief for lack of evidence suggesting there is one.
freudian phoeniX: you believe atheism is right, another belief
misterravenguy: atheism is a logical default, like i said.
freudian phoeniX: so what do you believe in, anything?
freudian phoeniX: believe in gravity?
misterravenguy: i don't hold concrete ideas that are not grounded in logic to be true, no.
misterravenguy: there is evidence for gravity. gravity is measurable.
freudian phoeniX: but you do have beliefs?
freudian phoeniX: you have to have beliefs, you cannot go around without a belief in something
misterravenguy: not in the same sense of the word.
freudian phoeniX: well mr funk & wagnall's, what does the word belief mean?
freudian phoeniX: and what's your take on it?
misterravenguy: a religious belief is one for which there is no evidence. where there evidence, it would be a scientifically accepted fact
misterravenguy: *were
misterravenguy: you'll notice a lot more internal consistancy within science then religion
misterravenguy: that's because science involves actual testing.
freudian phoeniX: yea, i'm all about science, i'm not always good at it though
freudian phoeniX: i don't really like religion either, but the point is, you contradict yourself when you say you don't hold beliefs
misterravenguy: so why are there thousands of religions? simple. the ideas are based on faith, and there's often no way to test a faith-based idea. alternately, sometimes the faith-based ideas directly contradict empricial evidence, rather then just logic.
misterravenguy: no i don't.
misterravenguy: "i believe there is a god" is contextually different from "i believe the sky is blue"
freudian phoeniX: the sky isn't blue, i learned that in a science class
misterravenguy: subjectively, it is.
misterravenguy: a better example would have been "i believe the earth is round"
freudian phoeniX: it's not even round, it has corners
freudian phoeniX: so you don't believe you're going to die?
misterravenguy: i've never heard that. hit me with a link.
in any case, you know what i mean
misterravenguy: oh, it's quite possible i will.
freudian phoeniX: i read it in a book, something about the actaul shape of the earth, geology, blah blah blah
freudian phoeniX: so that's a belief
freudian phoeniX: you hold at least one belief
misterravenguy: no, it
misterravenguy: *it's not
misterravenguy: it's decidedly a possibility based on what i know of reality.
freudian phoeniX: there's nothing wrong with belief in something, it seems like you're scared or running from something, did someone in your childhood throw a book at you with the word belief on it
misterravenguy: the decision is based on reality and logic.
misterravenguy: scared and running? from what?
freudian phoeniX: like all your atheist friends will disown you, like "belief" is a bad word, or something like that
misterravenguy: why should i believe in something for which there is no evidence or logical basis?
misterravenguy: my entire family is religious, don't make assumptions.
misterravenguy: for that matter, it's very likely they will disown me in the not-so-distant future
freudian phoeniX: i said friends
misterravenguy: it has nothing to do with any atheist friends i have.
misterravenguy: i care about TRUTH.
freudian phoeniX: you said there's evidence for gravity, but you don't want to believe in it?
misterravenguy: there's no need to 'believe in' it, there's evidence. i KNOW gravity exists.
misterravenguy: 1sec
misterravenguy: "We may define "faith" as the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of "faith." We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence. The substitution of emotion for evidence is apt to lead to strife, since different groups, substitute different emotions." - Bertrand Russel
freudian phoeniX: i guess you didn't look up belief in the dictionary
freudian phoeniX: but i did
misterravenguy: it's just a word, dude
misterravenguy: there's a rather stark difference in "belief" because of evidence, and "belief" without evidence, or even in the face of contrary evidence
freudian phoeniX: acceptance of the truth, so by definition, you do not accept gravity, therefore you don't accept the truth
misterravenguy: when did i say i don't accept gravity? shortly ago i said that i *know* gravity exists
misterravenguy: what i'm saying is very simple, please try to understand it.
my internal model of reality is based on facts and logic.
the internal model of reality of a religious person is based on *some* facts and logic, and some ideas which are based on faith alone.
freudian phoeniX: yea, and you also said you care about truth, but i guess your dictionary has a different meaning for belief, because you do not "hold beliefs" when you do, but you say you don't, then you say you "care about truth"
misterravenguy: you're arguing totally arbitrary language semantics.
freudian phoeniX: sorry, you seemed like someone who tries to prove everyone else wrong, but have trouble accepting your own faults
misterravenguy: fine, let's use the word "belief" and discuss instead what these "beliefs" are based on. truth can be defined as a belief which is rooted in evidence and logic.
freudian phoeniX: sure
misterravenguy: so religious beliefs are based on "faith".
misterravenguy: religious faith.
freudian phoeniX: right, mostly, but there's some evidence on some of the occurences in the bible
freudian phoeniX: not ironically though, most of that research is done by "believers"
misterravenguy: yes, probably. some of the references are to actual people or events, and why is that surprising? that hardly validates the entire book, let alone the more radical of its stories
misterravenguy: i've heard an analogy.. that of Gone With The Wind. the story features the civil war, which actually happened. does this validate the rest of the story as an actuall occurance?
misterravenguy: furthermore, some of the miracles in the bible are testable to the extent of logical probability, based on evidence.
misterravenguy: for example, a global flood occuring a geological eyeblink of 4000 or so years ago. there should be a wealth of evidence.
misterravenguy: (including the absense of most or all oceanic life)
freudian phoeniX: are you trying to allude subconsciously that you believe in the bible?
misterravenguy: i have no idea why you'd suggest that.
misterravenguy: i was saying that had the flood happened, there'd be a much more profound mark left.
misterravenguy: we can then assign a very low, or perhaps even zero, probability to a global flood occuring a few thousand years ago. i'd say the number is almost certianly zero.
freudian phoeniX: you sure? cause i just took a geology course and i was damn surprised at what can happen
freudian phoeniX: did you know the earth wobbles?
freudian phoeniX: it's fucked up
misterravenguy:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
misterravenguy: believe me, there are too many logistical problems
freudian phoeniX: anyway, you filled my time until i had something to do, which i do now, i'll check out the link later, and also, i never said the flooding was one of the examples from the bible that could be scientifically accurate, try not to assume
freudian phoeniX: have a good one
freudian phoeniX: prick
misterravenguy: you too
misterravenguy: heh.
misterravenguy: are you seriously upset?
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Auto response from freudian phoeniX: when you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. when you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. that's relativity- albert einstein
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freudian phoeniX: hahaha, that's funny you'd think so highly of yourself that you made me upset, heh, no, my girlfriend is here